Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Stream Wars, our thought leader series where we learn from industry experts about the latest trends and challenges from across the convergent TV space. 0:16 Hosted by Michael Beach. Today I'm joined by Ashwini Karandikar. Ashwini is currently executive vice president of media technology and data at the 4As. 0:26 Before that, she was a global president at Amnet, which is part of the Dentsu Aegis Network. Along with the 4As, Ashwini has served on several boards, including MediaMath, IOTA, and MiQ. 0:36 Please enjoy my conversation with Ashwini Karandikar. Ashwini, thanks for joining us today. Of course. Pleasure being here. Absolutely. 0:45 Well, kind of, uh, why don't you start off just give us kind of background on your career and how you ended up where you are today. Sure. Um, I am, um... I'm gonna age myself, date myself. I'm an industry veteran. 0:59 [laughs] Uh, I've been around the advertising marketing, um, ecosystems for a, for a while now. So, um, 1:09 way back when I was, um, at a few startups, then I joined, um, an agency that Dentsu bought, Aegis bought, and I ended up starting Amnet for them. Uh, Amnet is Dentsu Aegis' programmatic group. 1:24 And so, um, started it, took it to about 50 plus countries, had a blast building that business and traveling the world. Um, just before COVID I transitioned out and I joined McKinsey for a while. 1:42 Um, I knew Marla from before, Kaplowitz, and so when she mentioned, uh, this opportunity to lead the media technology and data practice for the 4As I, I could not refuse. 1:56 So, uh, it's now been a year, just under a year that I've been at the 4As leading this practice and having a fantastic time doing it. Yeah. I'm sure, you know, 2:10 getting an opportunity to, to obviously have a, you know, kind of real deep understanding of one agency, but now getting to work with so many groups, it's gotta be, uh, uh, exciting and a good learning curve. 2:19 It's, it's, it's definitely very intriguing. 2:23 Um, I think the time and space that we are in right now is so fast-moving with so many things happening at the same time, uh, and it all, all of them directly affect people end of day, no matter which side of the equation you sit on or sit at or sit on or work in. 2:42 Um, that I, I love being, um, in this vantage point. Having built businesses before, I fully completely understand what an independent agency is probably going through. 2:56 Um, and having lived at an, uh, at a holding company for so long, I get that side of the business as well. Um, 3:05 I think technology is probably the biggest equalizer of our times, and so figuring out, you know, how different, um, constituencies within the space that we live in interact, react, collaborate. 3:20 It's a, it's a great time to be here is all I can say. [laughs] Yeah. Absolutely. 3:25 Well, you know, for, I'm sure a lot of our group's familiar with the 4As, but would you mind giving us kind of background on who the customers are, kind of what the problem they solve is? Yeah, yeah. Definitely. 3:34 Um, the 4As is actually a, is a very well-established, very old organization. So it was set up in 1917, um, essentially to help promote and advance the interests of, uh, member agencies. 3:51 Um, 3:54 currently we serve more than 600 members, um, and I think we account for over 85% of the US advertising spend that we are able to, um, either interact with or have some, uh, contribution towards. 4:12 Um, what is not very well known, uh, is that the 4As also includes the 4As benefits division, which ensures more than, um, 160,000, uh, employees. 4:26 Um, we have a very, uh, robust 4As foundation that advocates for, um, multicultural talent, uh, within the industry. Um, I think, um, 4:40 like, like everything else, the 4As has sort of evolved with the, with the space as well, where, uh, at all times, you know, we are always at the forefront defending and advocating for agencies. 4:56 The nature of agencies has evolved from where it was pure servicing, pure media buying, pure TV buying to now pretty much anything to do with anything to do with con- with consumers. 5:09 Um, and so the, um, something that we have been very diligent and honestly I'm very proud of the way the 4As helped agencies deal with and navigate the whole pandemic was helping with, uh, legal, uh, questions, helping with, you know, do you go back to the office, do you not? 5:31 What is the meaning of an office? What is the meaning of culture? What is the meaning of talent? How do you really hire? How, um, how do you, uh, expand the products and services that you offer? 5:45 Um, and again, like I said, it all end of day affects everyone at a very personal level. So, um, the 4As is kind of in it for all of these different reasons and has been doing this for a very long time. 6:00 I actually have a question for you, Michael. Yeah. Fire away. Um, similar, like cross-stream media, it's such a cool, um- Uh, business, I think right time, right place where we are currently. 6:15 Um, I'm curious about you, meaning how did you, um [lips smack] how, how did you arrive at where you are at? How did you think about the idea of CrossScreen? 6:25 What was the genesis of CrossScreen overall, CrossScreen Media? [clears throat] Yeah, it's a great question. So, you know, I've kind of had s- three big, um, kind of work periods in, in my career. 6:36 You know, the first, um, yeah, I worked in direct marketing, uh, for a long time and, you know, primarily in kind of U.S. politics. And- Oh... you know, we, we were, uh, really on the cutting edge of having... 6:48 You know, we had basically had a CRM file of every, every customer in the United States we wanted to target, and we were kind of unique in that regard. 6:55 Uh, and saw a, the intersection of digital and that kind of data being the future, and this is in the, you know, late 2000s. 7:03 Uh, and so started an agency, you know, kind of focused on that space and, and kind of also corporate advocacy. And, 7:10 um, you know, we kept running into challenges where, h- um, you know, how do you all- how much do you allocate to digital? And this is the early 2010s, um, you know, versus linear and, and kind of other, other formats. 7:22 So we started to build out some technology around answering that question for our agency and, you know, it was really, you know, an interesting, uh, [clears throat] interesting challenge, right? 7:34 J- 'cause you had to combine, you know, your digital data sets with, you know, set-top box data and, uh, you know, all these things that, you know, 2013 and '14 and '15 were, were kind of newer and more cutting edge than they are today. 7:47 Um, and then really saw that that was tough to build in one agency, right? I think that was a light bulb went off that all that capital expenditure for one agency was really tough because- Yeah... you, um... 7:58 And so, you know, spun that technology into a separate company, exited the agency, and really our initial, you know, go to market was to other small regional agencies that, um, were probably smaller than we were. 8:10 We were about 140 people at the time and, and, uh, really gave them a huge advantage in the market to now offer, you know, all video together under one roof. And, and, uh, we've kind of gone from there. 8:24 It must have been such a cool journey like where video was forever was just what you saw on your TV screen. Mm-hmm. And now suddenly last 10 years, there isn't a single device that does not have video of some sort. Yeah. 8:41 It's a, I mean, a really interesting challenge and, you know, and it's only growing, right? Yeah. 8:44 Because even, you know, we, we focus so much on the allocation and the where the, the dollars get placed, but, um, what creative to make is even a, a big question, right? Like, if you... 8:55 You know, something like TikTok now that's really gaining a lot of steam, um, you know, it's a completely different video format than, uh, you would've needed before. 9:05 And so that's, you know, either on the agency or the brand, more effort. And I think those, those are... 9:10 Uh, I think today it's more complicated than it was five years ago, and five years ago it was so much more complicated before that. [laughs] I, I don't see that trend stopping, so. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit, uh, 9:21 it's a bit scary. [laughs] Oh, well. Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. Good job security for all of us, though. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Definitely. [laughs] Yeah. 9:32 But, you know, one thing, you know, measurement's a huge area on the video front for our customer base. Are, are you seeing the same thing? Yeah. So, um, measurement has always been a big question. 9:43 I think over the last, uh, 12 to 24 months with everything that's happened on with, with Nielsen and with just broad measurement, um, I feel like the whole space is sort of back in play and in, in, in flux. 9:59 To some extent we are... So there's been a lot of chatter around multiple currencies, single currencies, whatever else. I think multiple currencies are sort of here to stay. 10:10 Uh, for those of us who came into this from the digital side, multiple currencies was always a fact that you took into account and then figured out how to normalize it or map it against some base currency, if you will. 10:26 Um, currently buying like at a, at a, at a broader scale is sort of seeing, uh, measurement, um, diversify, if you will, into what I call the vertical and the horizontal. 10:43 Meaning a siloed base, meaning one, one TV network pick one measurement provider and it works for them. And so that almost becomes like a vertical solution. 10:54 But then for a marketer or an agency, you still need to connect the dots across multiple verticals, if you will. And so there it's, it's not just one or the other. It has to be both. 11:07 And I think to some extent the newer measurement companies, Samba, Innovate, VideoAmp, et cetera, they are, they are definitely leading the way in this verticalization, if you will. But, uh, 11:23 at, at a, at an agency or an, or a marketer level, you, you still need to be able to bring it all together. Um, and so we, we are seeing this happen. 11:35 I think there's a, there's also a growing need for some sort of, uh, verification, accreditation, what MRC offers. Because, um, 11:49 even if different providers offer you different measurements, you still have to sort out, you know, how it matches to the broader ecosystem. Mm-hmm. Um, lots and lots of moving parts and pieces for sure. 12:05 Um, the 4As does extensive work with the ANA, with SIM, with our agency partners. Uh, with, with, with you Crossscreen Media in trying to figure out what's a good framework for anyone to follow. 12:21 And I, um, I think once you get to the local level, the questions and the potential problems sort of exponentially, um, multiply, uh, because each market is its... Is, is a, is a universe in itself. 12:38 And so, and then you have to connect it all. So, um, lots. Lots and lots. Yeah. What are... I mean, you know, that's the world we live in. It's local. What, what are... 12:51 Kinda dive deeper on that, the challenges specifically for local. Um, um, 12:58 maybe this is a convers- I've, I would actually love your insight into this because you, because Crossscreen Media lives so much into, in, in the local space and provides such a key offering that, uh, local markets need. 13:13 I, I think the, the challenge... I don't know if it's a challenge or if it's just access to data overall. 13:21 You know, local is restricted by, by, by geography, and so what they see and what they're able to measure and how they're able to make sense of what they're seeing, to some extent is restricted by the market that, that they're in. 13:37 And so to some extent, I think there's a need for better big data analysis to kind of feed in the trends that any local market can then use to make s- to give some context to what they are seeing in, in that given market. 13:54 Uh, and then being able to stitch it all together to make it make sense of the numbers at a regional or a, or a, or a national level. Um, 14:05 in fact, uh, while I was thinking and preparing for this podcast, one of my questions for you w- was gonna be, what is Crossscreen's view on, um, multicurrency? Where do you think that's going? 14:19 And in terms of the data sets that you see within, um, local, or just the requests that you're, you, you, you are, you're seeing within the local market, how have they sort of evolved over the last, 14:35 I'll say 10 years, but, you know, any, any time period? Yeah. That's a, that's a great question. I mean, we're... And I, I kind of agree with you. 14:44 I mean, multicurrency world, I mean, coming from a digital background, you know, even if people have different objectives, right? 14:50 I've always been kind of fascinated that, um, you know, even every TV ad you see has a different objective, and yet we kind of still use the same primary currency. 14:59 I know there's a lot of advantages to scale, uh, and things like that, that, that television has versus other mediums. But, you know, we didn't really ever look at that like that was a, a deal breaker. 15:08 And so the, the customer base that would naturally select us today are probably, uh, right off the bat, they're okay with multiple currencies or alternative currencies. 15:19 Um, they probably wanna take a digital, more of a digital view of television. Um, you know, not fully digital, but they wanna... 15:26 You know, they look at both the same and, uh, you know, about 60% of the video spend on our platform is still on broadcast and cable television. Oh, wow. Uh, and the, uh... 15:36 But they, they wanna figure out the, you know, reaching the target and everything else. And even back to 10 years ago, 15:44 you know, we would, we built planning out first, which is a little different than the most of the market. 15:48 Everyone else has kind of built measurement out initially and, um, you know, part of that was just the, the challenge of bringing it all together and especially when you were dealing with a multi-market plan that, you know, we had two big insights. 16:00 One, that media consumption against the exact same demo was dramatically different across markets, you know? I'm in Washington, DC. 16:07 If you looked at people in market to buy, you know, a Ford F-150 here versus in Charlottesville, Virginia, the consumption habits of those audiences- Maybe... would be dramatically different. Yeah, yeah. 16:17 Uh, and then the second thing was that the l- the digital pricing was relatively similar. Like, you, maybe you'd find a, you know, 3% or 5% difference in CPMs between YouTube here- Wow... and YouTube in Charlottesville. 16:29 But if you looked at linear, you could see, you know, 100% difference. Yeah. Um, because their pricing is still so human driven. Uh, it's set in each individual market. 16:41 You know, the, the CBS owner in Charlottesville doesn't care about what NBC is charging in Washington, DC. They care about what NBC is charging in Charlottesville. Yeah, yeah. And so you get these huge spreads. 16:51 And so if you're using a kind of a national model to plan local, with those two things, you know, consumption habits and pricing, your plan is gonna be wildly off. 17:00 And so we used those for a number of years, and we would end up thinking, "Oh, well, we're gonna get 800 points to the target in each of these markets," and we would get 1,300 in one and 700 in the other. Wow. 17:10 Um, and so th- that was kind of the genesis for building out planning first. Um, and I think it's, it's served us really well up to this point. 17:18 And so now I think the rest of the market's starting to figure out, well, you've got audience data, you've got, you know, uh, pricing history and all these things that a planning environment would have. 17:28 Um, you know, it creates a lot of stickiness with, uh, with the customer. And so, you know, that was kind of our, um, our worldview behind, you know, doing planning first at the, uh, local level. Yeah. 17:39 I think, I think that was smart. But I'm sure you would have to, um... I'm, I'm actually curious, ev- what all did you have to do to make, to get into planning? Because usually the path is the other way. 17:52 Like, you bring in data, you start reporting into, reporting on it, you figure out some measurement framework, and then you move up, up the chain to say, "Okay, wait, how did they plan this?" 18:02 Or, "What were the decisions that led to the buy that we are now measuring?" Um, so what were all the, um... How many or what were the different data feeds that you had to take into account? Uh... 18:21 Yeah. Well, I mean, oh, when we first built the product, you know, it was internally facing back in, uh, 2013 as we originally launched our first, uh, kind of beta. And, 18:31 uh, then it was s- Set Top Box data was the first data set we had to bring in because, you know, our buying team used Strata to- Oh... um, actually plan out the buy. Yeah. But that was... wouldn't work with a, 18:42 a j- a data set like Rentrak- Yeah... right when we're, we're targeting it's a... And so we built a, kind of a, a more advanced optimizer, but then the next thing became, okay, well, how do you deal with rates? 18:54 How do you deal with avails? How do you deal with what actually happened? 18:57 Um, if your end report is coming out of a, a product like Strata and it's in age and gender, but you put a plan together on the strategic target, um, you know, you've got a lot of data analysis work. 19:09 And so those became the first pieces that we put together, and then realized that, um, you know, a lot of those really needed to be in one place, right? Those were all individual steps that we were doing as a service. 19:21 Yeah. So when we launched Crossscreen Media, uh, you know, we took about nine months to kind of rebuild everything- Wow... and, and make that as a kind of the core offering. 19:28 And also really help you answer the question on the front end, what do I need to do? 19:32 You know, as opposed to, uh, before, if you knew you wanted to spend, you know, $500,000 on broadcast, we could tell you the answer to that question. 19:40 But the minute it became, "Well, I've got $5 million to spend on video in these 10 markets- What to do. Yeah, yeah... what do I do?" That was much harder. And that question, we crush that today. That's 19:51 in- incredible journey. I think much, much valued and much needed, um, connector workflow, if you will. So that's very cool. Yeah. And there's still, I mean, tons... 20:04 You know, we're, we've tried to stay really out of things that are in existing planning environments because a lot of our customers use, you know, Mediaocean or a Strata today, and it, you know, it... 20:14 We've gotta be really, you know, careful with our resources- Yeah... that we don't, uh, you know- Repeat, yeah... duplicate anything. 20:19 So a lot of what we've done is, is, you know, uh, an add-on to what's already in the market. Yeah. Wow. Uh, excellent. 20:30 Well, what I th- I know we talked before, it sounded like, uh, 4As is working on a, kind of a measurement report. Is that right? So yeah. So we are, we are working on multiple measurement projects, if you will. 20:41 Um, one was, uh, one is around... Um, so we, so we have a very robust measurement committee that, um, 20:50 that is staffed with, if you will, the, the lead experts of measurement around, uh, across holding companies, large independents, 21:00 and they live and breathe this whole question that we have been talking about for the last 10-odd minutes about bringing in multiple data sets, figuring out what actually, uh, is, is, um, what, what the data is saying, and then how do you apply it back to either pla- planning or then figuring out how to further curate your buys or what have you. 21:23 Um, so, so there's that. We are about to launch into a project with the ANA and SIM around the, um, 21:35 the overall purpose and usage of multi-currency measurement systems, and our aspiration is to come out with some sort of framework. So not, not dictate the partners or providers, instead come out with a framework to say 21:53 if... Assuming that multiple currencies are here to stay, but you still need to make sense of it all at the end of the day, here, you know, what are some of the frameworks and/or models that you could use? 22:06 Um, so that, we're about to get started with that. Um, obviously in constant discussions with Nielsen, Comscore, um, and others. 22:20 You know, for all practical purposes, Nielsen and Comscore are still probably the only two horizontal systems, the, the, the connectors, if you will. 22:32 And so, uh, while Nielsen sort of goes through its evolution and unveils Nielsen 1, and Comscore goes through its product evolution, uh, we, we are, um, we're obviously always in touch with them to not only understand what they are planning, but then how does that impact agencies, and in turn, how will it, how will it impact, um, 22:58 marketers. So, um, lots of, lots of good work, lots of moving pieces. Um, and I'm sure you, you are seeing a lot of it because if... F- 23:16 I think, did you share that stat about if for, for, for every one on national, there are like 100 local and, or h- how many ever? Like there's, there's an exponential one to many, uh, map, if you will. Uh- 23:34 Yeah. I think we... The model is, uh, 800 video advertisers- Wow... at the local level for every one national video advertiser. And so b- basically every media market, which kind of makes sense, right? That it... 23:46 You've got about 250 brands buy predominant amount of national television. You know, maybe we're, we're estimating about, you know, 1,250 that are your, your primary CTV, uh, or, or national cable buyers. 23:59 Um, and then, uh, you've got almost a million, uh- Wow... video advertisers at the local level across the country. 24:06 And it seemed really high, but in 2020, there were 3 million Facebook advertisers in the US, almost all those local. 24:12 And so you can kind of really see how that would work, and that it leads to every media market having more buyers than buy at the upfronts or anywhere else. 24:22 And so the technology stack needs to really be totally different because it's, um, you know, I think we... 24:27 Our-- the average video buyer to local buys $120,000 a year and versus tens of millions of dollars at the, the, uh, national level. Uh, and we're, we're kinda trying to retrofit the same stack 24:40 down and it's just not gonna work. Yeah. So then how, how do you think multiple currencies are gonna work in the local scenario? 24:49 Meaning, not only the digital mul- multiple, which we are all sort of used to, but also just the overarching multiple currency, uh, world that's sort of coming and going to affect all of measurement across the board. 25:04 Yeah, I mean, I, you know, th- like I, I feel like, you know, a lot of our customer base has been dealing with that for a long time and, and they, you know, almost every one of them, for instance, is a Nielsen customer. 25:12 Yeah. Uh, and, you know, buys agent gender at the, at the local level. Um, obviously if they're not a Nielsen customer, the, the station groups are all Nielsen customers. Many of them now are Comscore customers as well. 25:26 Uh, and so they are getting a rating, uh, or an estimate back from one of those- Yeah... two people, 25:33 and they're just maybe going into our environment and figuring out, okay, well, you know, I wanna target, um, this auto audience, and I got a 35, you know, 18 to 49-year-old adult target from the, the station. 25:45 You know, the, the guarantee may still be off that 18 to 49-year-old adult, but our customer's trying to figure out, okay, what program that all has the same 18 to 49-year-old adult rating has the most auto intenders, right? 25:57 And so, um, I know that's how we thought as an agency, like there's an asymmetric information opportunity here- Yeah... of I have the, the Nielsen numbers and the strategic number. The seller may only have one. 26:09 Um, obviously we have sellers that are customers of ours 'cause they're trying to have the same- Yeah... advantage. Um, so I don't really think it's a big deal. 26:17 Uh, I think s- the sell side would, it served them well to have multiple currencies as well because, you know, when they go into a buyer that y- may, may rely more on Nielsen data than Samba or somebody else, it's, it's good to know that vice versa when they go into the, a group they know is using, uh, you know, another provider's data. 26:37 If they don't price their inventory to that, they're gonna miss out on an opportunity 'cause it, it's, uh, you know, the other t- other side's probably looking- Yeah... at both data sources. You're right. 26:47 Everyone will have to become smarter about reading basic data sets and then figuring out how it sort of links together. Yeah. Um, what, uh... I guess one question on that. Y- you know, what do you see... 27:05 I mean, is that pretty common today, the other groups, that they're using multiple s- you know, data sets, um, you know, just like our customer base, or is that something unique to kind of what we're seeing? Um, 27:18 I think multiple data sets and multiple currencies is sort of becoming the norm. The question honestly is, uh, A, what all do you wanna pay for? Um, because are you then gonna pay for Nielsen, Samba, 27:35 Innovid, whoever else, et cetera, et cetera. And how are you going to end of day connect it back to the outcomes that the marketer is most interested in or, or publisher? 27:50 Honestly, the measurement equation fall, falls on both sides, right? The, the buy side is interested in measurement to figure out what impact did the media buy have on whatever outcome, uh, they are wanting to achieve. 28:07 The sell side, while, while measurement is critical to figure out how to price the media, I'm, I'm sure they would also like to understand how their readers or their consumers or their, uh, uh, content consumers are, are, are, are interacting with their content. 28:24 And so, um, we have, we, we, we are seeing this across the board. Um, the, the buy side has been a bit, um, 28:39 not n- not necessarily slower, probably more deliberate in trying to figure out how to respond to the multiple currencies that are coming to market now. 28:50 And I, and I think you, you, you, you hear a lot from the buy side in terms of cost, in terms of validity, in terms of, you know, being able to benchmark the numbers for what they really are, um, and end of day being able to connect them to a, to desired outcome. 29:07 So, um, I think you, you have a, you have a cool vantage point, meaning you, you're seeing the data as it is coming in, and you are actually being able to see the trends as they come in. Um, 29:23 m- many of the agencies have created their internal measurement tools to do, to do something similar, like analyze and synthesize the data that they see, 29:33 and then end of day try and connect it to the desired outcome, um, across the board. Yeah. One of the things we get feedback on and love to get your perspective is, is just the business model as well of if... 29:48 And I know this is something we struggle with as an agency before, you know, who's gonna pay for this? Um, how do we pass this along? 29:56 You know, is it the marketer that, uh, signs up for a data source and the agency has to use it? Is it the agency signs up for it and it becomes part of working media, uh, or, you know, a similar thing? 30:06 What, what are you, what are you seeing on the business model side? Um, that's a great question, and I've, I've, I've been on multiple sides of this con- of this conversation in the past. Um, 30:18 ideally, I think, um, it's best for the marketer to own the contractual relationship. Um- 30:30 Agencies also have their own proprietary, uh, measurement solutions or, or, or data synthesis solutions. Um, 30:42 the, the models, uh, that have been proposed and many of them that actually work pretty well based on what the two parties are most interested in could be hybrid, could be a subscription fee plus a dedicated, um, team that helps with, you know, strategic questions or, or, or, um, big data questions, if you will. 31:06 It could be, um, completely managed service, meaning, "Here's all my data. Please m- make sense of it and just give me back the output." 31:17 Uh, we've-- I've, I've seen all of them work and I, and, and I think to some extent it completely depends on what the, the two parties in that given contract, what their goals are. 31:29 Because, uh, in, in reality, many of the, um, marketers and adver- and, and agencies 31:37 don't necessarily have the, uh, infrastructure, especially now with so much data being generated and being, um, being sent back to them to, to not only synthesize it, but then to analyze it. 31:54 And so, um, a- as long as the, 32:01 um, as long as the infrastructure is taking into account all the privacy needs, meaning there's no personal information that's, that's being leaked or shared without consent or what have you, it may, 32:16 it may be just fine to work with a partner who manages all of this for you. Uh, so I've, I've, I've seen multiple models. They all work or don't work based on what the two sides thought they were getting into. Um, 32:35 uh, the, the, the common theme in all of this is there is a, there's a serious requirement for both sides to be legitimately educa- educated on what, what all of this... Like, data for the sake of data is kind of... 32:51 it's just table stakes. I, I, I, I remember being in conversations where said marketer had sales data from 10 years ago. That data is potentially useless if you don't carry those products, right? And so 33:09 w- I remember seeing that data and I was like, "There are many products in this, in this set that you don't carry anymore, you don't sell anymore, so why are you carrying this data around with you? 33:21 What is it that you're wanting to get out of it?" Um, they didn't know either and someone had just told them, you know, having data into the as far as possible is a, is a good thing. 33:35 Sometimes it's just a cost, uh, that you're bearing without realizing what to do with it. And so I, um, I think the, I think the need to have just basic understanding and/or education on data sets. 33:53 So you, you don't need to be a programmer or coder, but you definitely need to know what to do with the terabytes of data that you're gonna get. Um, another, 34:04 and it's probably my, my pet peeve, but, um, about four or five years ago, uh, someone started this trend about wanting log files of all sorts. Sure, but what will you do with those log files? 34:18 Because that's simply a timestamped record of what happened whenever it happened. And somehow this notion that, "Ugh, if, if I get terabytes of log files, there's some magic bullet in there." There is not. 34:32 And so, um, I th- I think, I think there is... out of all of this probably what is becoming more and more obvious is that, A, there's real need for real understanding of what you want to do with the data sets. 34:49 B, there, there is real requirement for marketers and agencies to work with each other because agencies by, by definition specialize in all these different facets. 34:59 Marketers have to focus on their business, whether it's develop- you know, creating a product, selling the product, developing markets, what have you. And I think there's need for sophisticated, um, 35:12 partners such as yourselves to really help bring all this information together in one place so that then whoever is the user does not have to spend hours just pivot tabling everything 35:28 and then not knowing what to do with it. So I, I think, um, I think we, we are seeing all, all of this happen and it, it, it-- to some extent it's a big positive for the agencies because, 35:45 you know, agency talent is trained to understand these different, um, facets all at the same time. And so I think we are... I think the partnerships are gonna be good overall. Yeah. 36:03 And I love the, uh, the log file example. That's something we've seen rise up as well and, um, e- even now how, you know, some, uh, DSPs or ad servers like, you know, give free access- Yeah... others charge quite a bit, 36:16 um, 'cause I think they're having the same question like kind of this is a, uh... there's definitely a cost to this. Yeah. 36:20 I mean, there's the, there's cost to storing, there's cost to, um, investigating, there's cost to analyzing, there's cost to, um, 36:31 recommending, um- It all e- even if you say it's, you know, it's a machine doing all of it, someone has to train the machine to understand all that data. So yeah, there's... 36:42 All of, all of this can be a cost if you don't know what you're doing with the data. It could be a fabulous asset if, if it's a, if it's a feed into something bigger and better overall. Excellent. 36:57 Well, if we have this conversation, you know, a year from now- Yeah... what's one prediction that's, uh, kind of under the radar? I have, I have many. [laughs] Um- Oh, great... well, 37:10 you know me, I, you know, I have many opinions about everything under the sun, but, um, in, in terms of predictions, I, I think, um, 37:21 I think one year from now we are still going to be working with Nielsen as a measurement, uh, connector, if you will, uh, with, with better data feeds from other partners. 37:33 But this notion that Nielsen is gonna be gone, I'm not, I'm not so sure. I think at a, at a, at a even macro, even more macro, if, if that's possible, level, we are seeing, we are seeing gaming as the entry into, um, 37:52 better media planning, better media, uh, better media activation to some extent, better consumer, um, sentiment analysis. 38:03 Um, and so measurement for games, it will be a whole different ball of wax that we'll have to sort out because, um, gaming is a very active sport for, [laughs] 38:19 uh, for lack of a better word. And so in that case, you know, 38:26 how do you really make sense of, uh, of the, the, the gamer's intent other than what you're actually seeing in terms of the game or the game that he or she's playing? Um, 38:40 I would say, uh, a year from now, probably these two things, we'll still all be talking about what the metaverse is really about. Is it real? Is it not real? Is it one thing? Is it 10 things? Um, who knows? 38:55 But measurement and g- gaming, uh, we, we, we also, uh, covered gaming extensively during our decisions conference and the, the trend is sort of leaning towards that. It's, it's, it's more, um, 39:12 there's more, uh, purposeful activation, um, but which also means that the user is very clear about what they really want to do in that game and don't want to be bothered by any, with anything else. 39:28 And so it'll be, it'll be interesting. What do you think? Or... Yeah, I love the gaming one. There's a, a company, uh, Anzu, that just raised, um, a decent amount of money last week- Yeah... 39:41 that's in kind of in-game ads and I think, you know, you, uh, you feel like there's definitely some scale there now that, that, that's gonna be a big, big area. 39:49 And I mean, measuring attention, I mean, obviously it's gonna be eyes on screen, but, uh, did they see your ad or did they, uh... I think will be a, a more complicated problem than- Yeah. Yeah... video. 39:58 And maybe what, do you have a prediction that no one is thinking about just as yet or? Oh, um, I'm really interested to see the May, uh, Nielsen gauge. It'll be the first time- Yeah... 40:15 they've had it for a year straight, because it's kind of gone up and down and, um, 40:20 you know, that's been interesting 'cause, you know, when it comes out the streaming people are kind of, you know, beating their chest that, uh, you know, streaming's gonna take over, and then the fall hits and NFL comes back and college football and broadcast, you know, and cable creep up and, um... 40:34 So I'll be really interested to see that first, uh, year over year comparison, um, that they have because I think, you know, it, it's kind of similar to your Nielsen answer is that nothing's gonna- Yeah... 40:44 replace anything overnight. Complicated. But the blend is gonna get more complicated, right? That the, uh... And, and that's the world we're gonna live in for the next 10 years. 40:52 I think everyone's kind of looking for this, this binary outcome of we're all going to streaming overnight or, you know, we're all doing linear and it's like, no, we're gonna be in the, in the middle. 41:00 And I mean, even when look at our, our customer plans, you know, it's, it's rare to ever see 60... less than 60% of the reach coming from a group that gets advertising from both digital and linear, linear. 41:13 The linear only and the digital only is, are the- Oh... usually the two smallest buckets, and the biggest is almost always in the middle. 41:20 Now it could be, you know, uh, 90% of your, your frequency came from linear and 10% from digital, but it's the fact that the consumer- Yeah... is getting it both places at some point, and I think that's only gonna grow. 41:31 Like, we're probably just starting to see where, you know, that will be the biggest pie and then maybe people start to go streaming only. Um, but I feel the same way about, um, about- Yeah... consumption. Lots more work. 41:45 [laughs] Yeah. And I think you see it now in the networks, like you get your, you know, your NBCs and your CBSs, they talk more about that now that they have a streaming offering- Yeah... 41:56 than they did before when they were linear only. They're, you know, it's, you can find our content in other place and so... All right. Well, last question: What our audience, uh... 42:05 always looking to build the reading list. What should our audience be reading to understand, um, kind of video measurement and then really local specifically? Uh, the... That's a great question. 42:17 Um, I mean, the obvious, you know, there are plenty of media publications at the national level, local level, marketer level, agency level, um, Ad Age and Adweek and DRUM and Exchanger, Ad Exchanger, et cetera, et cetera. 42:34 Um- I would say though that, that currently and probably henceforth, there is so much information, good information, good insights coming from non-traditional, uh, sources. 42:51 The, the creator economy, what do you see within just general, uh, talent pools? What do you see within the whole AI, ML discussions? Um, in the past, they would all be very nicely bucketed, right? 43:06 AI, ML, only if you're a coder, go in there, otherwise don't, don't worry about it. Right now, there is, there is so much, um... 43:17 Technology is having such a broad impact on everything that is, uh, is happening now and in the future that, uh, my recommendation would be to, you know, 43:32 obviously read the big established publications, but also, uh, follow any topic that may interest you in terms of 43:41 media creativity, media types, um, the impact of tech on m- media production, on measurement, on, um, the intersection of local and national, um, 43:58 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Like, I, I can't keep up with, um... Many, many, many people use Twitter as a good source. Um, 44:14 that's not a bad source, but it all depends on whom you're selecting to follow. [laughs] Uh, so I would, I would say, uh, cast as wide a net as you would like, 44:25 um, because I don't, I don't find information sort of bucketed anymore. It's just, it's there. Um, and it, and it depends on either what application you want to, uh... 44:38 Like, are you, are you trying to apply all this, all the, all the stuff that you're reading about towards retail media, or is it for a marketer, or is it for a storefront, or is it for local point of sale? 44:51 It all, it all depends on the application to some extent. So it's a very long-winded answer to say read as much as you can. [laughs] There, there is not a single source anymore. Yeah, love it. Excellent. 45:03 Well, I appreciate your time, and I know our audience is gonna- No, thank you for inviting me... love this conversation. So thank you. And, um, I think it's always fun to chat with you about what's coming next, for sure. 45:13 [laughs] [upbeat music] Thank you for joining us on this episode of Screen Wars. I hope you enjoyed the discussion. You can find out more about CrossScreen Media at crossscreenmedia.com. 45:25 Please don't forget to sign up for our weekly newsletter, State of the Screens. You can find us on social media @crossscreenmedia. Join us next time for more insights and analysis straight from the experts. 45:36 [upbeat music]
