Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Stream Wars, our thought leader series where we learn from industry experts about the latest trends and challenges from across the convergent TV space. 0:16 Hosted by Michael Beach. Today, I'm joined by Michael Bologna. Michael's currently the chief accelerator at Brightline. Uh, I've known Michael for several years, uh, and really value his unique perspective. 0:29 Uh, you know, he's one of the few people, um, you know, combines a world-class insight with linear TV along with, with CTV and digital video. 0:37 Uh, you know, if you look at his experience, um, he has worked at places such as Modi Media and Group M and One to One Media. 0:43 Uh, yet at the same time, uh, you know, over the years I've run into him at conferences like, you know, Ramp Up and other areas that are kinda really data-heavy. 0:50 And that's, that's unique in the space of someone that combines, um, kinda the understanding of, you know, the mass reach and scale of linear with, you know, some of the data and measurement capabilities of, of digital. 1:01 Um, you know, probably why, you know, perfect fit for where he is today, you know, kinda right at the intersection of, um, you know, interactivity and, and, um, kinda high impact media on streaming. 1:12 Uh, you know, Brightline, uh, we're gonna get into this a little bit, but, you know, they're doing really interesting work, uh, w- around interactive ads. 1:17 Um, you know, one of the things we talk about in the newsletter a lot is that you've got this, you know, video ad market that we all think is gonna kinda continue to grow, uh, you know, at, you know, 4% to 7% every year into the future. 1:30 But at the same time that, uh, as someone moves away from linear TV to watching streaming, they get a lot fewer ads because there's, you know, 16 minutes an hour of ads on, uh, linear TV and there's only, you know, four or so on, on streaming. 1:42 So our argument's always been that if you're gonna have fewer ad impressions then you're gonna have a, a bigger market, that the CPMs themselves are gonna have to rise. 1:49 But, um, you know, one of the tough challenges there is that in order for the CPMs to, to rise, the, the buyers gotta see the value they're getting in exchange for that higher rate. 2:00 Uh, and you know, I think that, you know, technology like Brightline's, you know, is definitely gonna play a major role in solving that problem. 2:06 So, uh, with that, you know, please enjoy my conversation with Michael Bologna. Hey, Michael, welcome to Screen Wars. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Excellent. 2:15 Well, you and I go back quite a ways, uh, back to your days at One to One Media. Uh, mind giving our audience kind of a little bit of background on the path that led you to Brightline? Sure. 2:23 It's been, uh, coming up on my 20-24th year in the, uh, in the media business. So I, uh, I'm an ex-agency guy. I spent, uh, close to 20 years within the Group M WPP organization, the majority of that time focusing on, 2:40 you know, what started out as convergence media leading into emerging media, leading into emerging video, advanced television, advanced video. 2:48 Whatever terminology, um, was, was, was the flavor of the day, that was, that had always been my primary focus. 2:55 Um, late 2016, um, I was part of the team that, that launched Modi Media, which was, which was Group M's advanced video, um, internal, internal operation, which was, which was worked out, worked out well at the time. 3:13 All the new and emerging forms of video and television were, were highly fragmented, complicated, um, and required a specialty skill set to, to, to plan and execute. So we-- that's exactly what we did. 3:26 There was a group of us that that's what we did for a living, was, was specialized, uh, address the specialized forms of media. 3:33 Then that, um, Modi Media, a portion of that was, was acquired by, uh, by, by Cadent, which was then renamed One to One, which is where you and I first, first met. 3:48 And that was really, um, our transition from being an advanced video unit that serviced only Group M and WPP clients to a unit that could service agencies and advertisers across the, uh, across the entire industry, which was, which was, which was really, which was really cool and, and, and really interesting. 4:10 And I know that, that the sum of all that was, was just over, uh, just over, just over 21 years. 4:19 And then, uh, I've been at Brightline, uh, coming up on a year and a half now, and I'd always been familiar with Brightline. 4:25 So went back since Brightline launched early 2000, and, um, you know, my- myself and the, the two founders, my, my, my current boss, we, we got to know each other and we worked in the same sphere. 4:39 And then, uh, you know, a year and a half ago we, uh, we met at a, met at a restaurant in, in Westport, and, and my boss now, Jackie Corbelli, she asked me, "What do you think about coming and helping us, uh, 4:52 move, move Brightline in a, in a, in a new direction?" 4:55 So Brightline had been, you know, historically focused on building interactive ad experiences within the set-top box where traditional 30-second commercials linked, linked through to those. 5:08 Then with the ad, when televisions became smart and you really didn't need smart set-top boxes anymore, and televisions were connected to the internet and viewing became available via apps on your television, uh, Brightline shifted their business towards enabling publishers and streamers to offer various different types of advanced ad units with- within their apps. 5:36 And that's the business they're in now, and that's the business that I'm helping to run, lead, grow, and, and develop. Yeah. What kind of, you know, particular, you know, problem, uh, do you solve today? 5:48 So the biggest problem we solve for today in, in my opinion, is we all see the, the, the change in viewership and the evolution of viewing in a CTV environment, in an app-based environment- But if you notice, the viewing experience on an app is very different from the viewing experience on linear television. 6:14 So the ad experience has to be consistent with the viewing experience. So what we solve for is we enable the major streamers and publishers the ability to offer 6:27 ads that are more compatible and conducive to the viewership. So as opposed to just running a 30-second spot in the pod of an app on Peacock or Hulu or Discovery or Roku or, or any of the major streamers, 6:42 our ads are dynamic, they're expandable, they're addressable, they're shoppable, and that really engages the viewer with the advertisement in the same way as that app and that viewing experience it- itself engages the viewer in the content. 6:59 And that's, that's, if you boiled it down to, that's what we solve for. Uh, is your customer, uh, primarily the media buyer or the media seller? Um, we actually service both. So we, 7:13 in a nutshell, we've spent time doing technical work with the media seller, right? We-- So, 7:20 when that, what that means is, is we've done the technical work incorporating an SDK into the apps and the systems to allow them to offer these ads. So we service them in that sense. 7:33 Then the sales team at the publisher side, along with the sales group on, at, at Brightline, we jointly go out to the agencies and the advertisers and articulate the value of these advanced units from both a qualitative and a quantitative perspective. 7:53 We don't sell media, we don't resell media, we're not involved in the actual transaction, the transaction of the media and the units and the inventories between the agency, the advertiser, and the media publisher. 8:06 So we service the agency in the sense of helping them understand the value proposition of an advanced unit versus a standard unit, and then we in turn service the agency when it comes time to create and design the advanced unit, pulling all the assets together and putting it into one of our unit formats. 8:29 And then, of course, we service both the agency and the publisher simultaneously on the return path with the performance-related data and analytics that go along with the campaign. 8:43 So we, we s- we, in a nutshell, we do service the buy side and the sell side, but it is important to, to note, we don't, we don't, uh, we don't get involved in the media transaction. Okay. 8:55 And what all, you know, as we look at these, um, obviously, you know, exciting space, you know, what's possible today that a lot of people probably wouldn't, wouldn't even know about? Yeah. So 9:09 a lot of people-- Like this business is far less complicated than, than, than people think it is, right? We, we overcomplicate things in this business to no end. 9:22 You know, anything that is new is automatically assumed that it's, that it's complicated. 9:27 And, and it doesn't have to be, but you know, as media people, we're trained to do things a certain way, and there's a, you know, there's a certain reactionary time in our business between when something new becomes available to when it's actually considered simple, easy, and, and executable. 9:42 So what's, what's available today is nothing's ever gonna go happen to the 15-second spot or the 30-second spot or the 60-second spot, but what we offer, and other companies like us, is an alternative to that, right? 9:59 An ad that allows the viewer to engage with, to interact with, whether it's, whether it's a, a, a QR code, whether it's engaging with more content, whether it's expanding the ad, whether it's the ad being addressed to a specific person. 10:16 Perhaps sometime it's not the ad, it's in the show itself with an in-content application. All that stuff is very available today, um, and I think everybody knows that. 10:26 Where I think the-- what, what I think is available today that most, many don't fully understand is, is the scale of it, right? 10:36 Th-this, this, what I'm talking about now is available across every major streaming publisher in the industry right now. Ninety percent of it, right? There's always a few, a few exceptions. 10:48 So the scale is, is, is what is, is, is what I think is very available that not e- that not everybody knows. The same thing as it relates to the, um, qualitative and quantitative analytics behind this, right? 11:05 We're able, because this is CTV, we're able to take sort of the, the very best of the measurement requirements and techniques that we've all applied to the digital business, digital meaning desktop and mobile, and now apply it to television. 11:22 Because everything that I'm talking about here, all these ads, they're all enabled to run and are being run along with 11:32 full-length television programming on the Hulus and the Peacocks and the Discoverys and the Rokus and the Paramounts. So it's, it's, it's-- There's a lot more available than 11:44 some might realize, but I think the biggest probably misconception is, yeah, I know these, these funky ad units are there, but, but, but I didn't realize they're there to this, to this, to this capacity, to this scale. 11:59 And, and why that's important is, right, when, when the internet first came about, right, we had those adorable 468 by 60 banners, and then all of a sudden you fast-forward 18 months and there's more ad units than, than, you know, than, than, than I have hair. 12:16 So- That's sort of-- And, and then we needed to f- in order to really get the most out of digital-based internet advertising at the time, we needed a clutter bust, right? We needed it to cut through the clutter, 12:30 and by doing so, ad units became standardized. And that's what's happening in the CTV space right now. Viewership is up, we all know that, right? But 12:44 the ad experience needs to evolve with the viewing experience. So in order to help cut through the clutter of advertising within a CTV environment and also 12:59 align the ad experience with the viewing experience, these ad formats that I'm talking about that we and, and others like us do, I think is, is, is very important and, and, and that's, that's worth noting. 13:15 Yeah, I think, uh, at NBCU's, uh, 123 event, if I'm not mistaken, I think they, they showed, uh, at least one or two examples of kind of your ad units. I thought it was really interesting. 13:25 Um- I was at that event as well... you know, when-- What's that? I was at that event as well. It was fantastic. Yeah. No, I thought it was, uh, you know, interesting. 13:33 I, the, you know, big possibility, and obviously you and I have talked about measurement before, and that's, uh, like the perpetual hot topic. Um, do your customers measure these ads on 13:44 purely a, a, like a CPA or a transactional, or are they trying to mix a little bit of, you know, brand impact and more top-of-funnel metrics? Yeah, so it's, it's a combination of both, right? 13:54 So you, you definitely wanna do the, the quantitative analysis, which is basically the premium paid for an interactive ad, 14:06 measuring that alongside a click-through or an engagement or, or, or things like that, right? That's important. You wanna count your impressions. You wanna count your unique audience. 14:16 You wanna, you wanna look at reach and frequency. But then we also provide, us and, and, and our, you know, publisher partners, we provide the, the qualitative 14:28 analysis, and that goes back to your awareness, your purchase intent, your message association, all the lift in, in engagement factors that go along with an advertisement or a commercial message that isn't just a straight 30-second spot. 14:46 It doesn't mean those metrics don't apply to traditional units. 14:50 They do, but they apply much more to a unit that, that, that stands and sits outside the box, because those qualitative metrics are what in turn helps calculate what the appropriate price is for each advertiser. 15:07 I mean, we went through this exercise over the past eight years with, with addressable advertising, right? 15:13 That's great that we can target a specific message to a specific household, but just how much is that, is that worth? 15:21 And truthfully, the value of that ad to that specific household had a different, different, um, economic scenario per each, per each brand. So we're, we're, we're doing the same, the same thing with, with CTV. 15:35 But, you know, unlike the addressable space, CTV is in everyone's homes, right? Everyone has some type of connected television. The majority of homes have some type of connected television. 15:52 S- for some homes, that's all they have, and that's all they use. For some, it's an extra, and, and, and it's still the, the secondary device. 16:01 But, you know, in many cases, particularly with, with, with younger audiences, that's, that's all they use. So the more that the industry, I mean, you see it every day when you watch the streaming devices. 16:14 I mean, these major, major media companies, they're producing content specifically for a streaming environment. 16:20 And in many cases, it's airing consistently alongside a linear environment, and some types, some ti- cases it's airing only in that streaming environment. 16:30 So we believe, you know, we believe that's the right approach, and we're following suit when it comes to the advertising. 16:35 Let's produce and create advertising for, specifically for the streaming environment that doesn't necessarily live alongside its linear counterpart. Yeah. 16:47 With that in mind, is your kinda ideal-- Or is the customer most excited about your offering more of a digital background or a linear background? Uh, you know what? It's, it's very, very, very much both. 16:59 Um, and that's always been the case with new and emerging formats. So, you know, I, I would... This is an honest story. There was a particular campaign about two and a half months ago where 17:14 a particular brand, we had three separate campaigns for that brand, three separate budgets, all from within the same agency, right? 17:24 One s- fit the specific objective of the traditional video buyer, and, and that was, that was one campaign. Another was aligned with the objective of the digital buyer, and, and that was a, that was the second campaign. 17:41 And then the third was a very last-minute piece that was incorporated programmatically. So, you know, our, our, our solution definitely incorporates, um, all elements of the, of the buy-side chain. 17:58 It just depends how the group or the account is structured, or in some cases, who, who has the, the time and the, the, the, uh, the bandwidth to, uh, to think it through. 18:09 And, you know, there really isn't a right or wrong. Um, you know, every agency is, is, is, is different, and that's, that's, that's one of the big learning curves for me. 18:19 Every agency doesn't operate like the one I worked at for 20 years. Oh, for sure. 18:26 Um, we had, we had Brian Weiser on a couple weeks ago, and, you know, one of the things we were just talking about was the, kind of the overall market, and then the fact that, um, 18:36 you know, streaming was gonna lead to fewer overall impressions, but we've got the-- we all assume the, the video market's gonna continue to grow, so the CPMs have obviously gotta climb a bit to, to make up for that. 18:46 And I assume that, um, you know, a company like NBC, uh, Universal is excited about your product and your offering because it, it adds value to their advertising. 18:56 They can theoretically, you know, tr- you know, charge more if they deliver more value. Do you see buyers starting to change how they value CTV inventory when you add this additional kind of interactivity to it? 19:07 I do, and listen, you know, that's, that's always a topic of discussion, right? 19:11 Price is, price is important, but, you know, one of the biggest changes in the business that I've seen over the past, you know, 18 to 24 months is it's not all about price and volume. 19:28 It's not all about the cheapest price for as many eyeballs, right? The, the, the, the agencies and advertisers are definitely shifting their metrics, so something costing a little bit more isn't always bad. 19:40 If you wound the clock back 10 years, something that costs more, well, that's, that's, that's against the rules, right? Oh, my God, we spent $2 more on this, we're not gonna make the GRP goal. 19:52 Chicken Little, the sky's falling. It's not the case anymore. So, um, yeah, I mean, this does come at, at a premium, but, um, it's, it's rare that we see a case where the value doesn't far exceed the premium. 20:08 And, and the value's there for, for everyone, right? 20:11 To your point, all of our network partners, this is, this is a, this is a tool that, that, that they have then to offer, offer their agency and, and, and advertiser clients, um, you know, all the benefits of an advertising environment that's consistent with the, uh, with the viewing environment. 20:32 Yeah, and overall, you know, kind of thinking globally about the industry- Oh yeah... where do you see the biggest disconnect between buyer and seller when it comes to kind of conversion TV? Oof, that's a good question. 20:42 Um, I don't know that there's a disconnect. I think the misalignment per se goes back to, goes back to legacy, right? 20:57 Like, for right or for wrong, this business has always been confined to a certain set of rules, some legacy principles, and a legacy cu- and then, and to some extent, a legacy culture, right? 21:10 Buyer wants everything as cheap as possible. They always wanna pay less. Seller always wants more. 21:17 I think that that doesn't exist as much anymore, that there, that there is alignment in the sense that, okay, I'm willing to pay more if, and okay, I'm willing to take less if. 21:30 So I don't think there's, there's, there's a mis- there's a misconception. I think what buy side and sell side could always improve on, and I, you know, include myself in this as, this as well. 21:41 I certainly don't have all the answers. But the more collaboration and the more communication, the, the, the better, the better the outcome, right? 21:50 There-- as we evolve in the media business, the one-size-fits-all model becomes less and less relevant, and that's okay, right? 21:59 This business is filled with, with brilliant people, but it does require more time to address the challenges on an individual brand or project or advertiser or agency level. 22:11 And that's, and that takes, that takes a little bit of time. But, but I think that a lot of the old culture and the older legacy rules of the business are, um, are fading and, and that's, that's, that's a blessing. 22:28 And count on that, uh, we're recording on, uh, April 18th here, so we're getting ready to go into upfront season. Uh, any bold pred- predictions for us? Um, you know, 22:41 I think we're gonna, we're gonna hear, we're gonna see, see and hear a lot of what, what you would expect, right? Everybody knows viewership is gonna be up, so we're gonna hear, we're gonna hear just, just how much. 22:53 I do think that the focus of these upfront presentations and discussions are gonna center around, much more around CTV than, than they ever have in the past. 23:07 And the reason for that is, and this is probably the only piece of information that, that, that, that will be of interest out of what I just said over the past few seconds, is we're in a reactionary business, right? 23:18 It take, it takes us a little bit of time between when we receive a piece of data before when we actually execute on it. 23:24 So all the great data on CTV viewing and, and, and, you know, behavior and, and the value of all these various different types of ads and innovations I- that we've received over the past year, I think that's sunk in loud and clear to all of us. 23:43 So I think we're gonna see a lot more execution on that. So I think when the publishers go to go to market, they're gonna go to market with a lot of this stuff packaged together. 23:59 Just like when the, when, when, when the digital space, space blew up, right? First it was... You know, when I first started in the business, right? 24:07 You, if you put, if you put a couple of ads in, in Popular Mechanics Magazine, they gave you, they gave you free banner impressions, right? That was, that was cute. 24:15 Then those banner impressions became an actual business, and that begis- business became integrated with the larger print organization and with the larger television organization. 24:25 So everything that we're talking about now as it relates to connected television, innovation, addressability, advanced ad units, um- You know, whatever your term, preferred term might be, it's gonna be much better packaged and aligned as one this year 'cause it makes it easier for everyone. 24:46 It's easier for the publishers to package all of their inventory together because that's how they can make sure that their customers get the very best of their audience at the right frequency and at the, at the appropriate reach levels. 25:01 And it helps the, the, the buy side, the agencies and the advertisers, actually align the, the, the, the content that they're associating their messaging with closer to, to their overall objectives. 25:13 So there's, there's, there's more math that goes on now than there has been in the past, and it's a little bit of a different kind of math, but it still, it still all goes back to, you know, 25:28 where I'm spending my money, and am I spending it most, not just efficiently, but effectively. So I'm looking forward to the, to, to the, to the, to, to the upfronts this year. 25:39 I'm looking forward to listening to what all the, all the networks have to say. I'd be lying if I said I knew what they were gonna say, 'cause I don't. 25:46 Um, I'll be interested in seeing how well-attended these events are, right? Because we went from six-hour presentations a decade ago to, to, to now, you know, 45-minute or, or an hour-long presentations. 26:01 We went from, you know, thousands of people to hundreds of people. So I'm looking forward to it. Definitely. We'll get you out here on a couple more questions. 26:10 Um, one kind of we've been asking all our guests this season, you know, if you could wave a magic wand, uh, and change one thing about the video ad industry, what would it be, and why? Hmm. That's a good one. 26:22 If I could change something about the video industry, [sighs] I guess I would have to say, 26:38 don't spend all your money at once, right? We, we, we... And this kind of counters what we were talking about before, but everybody's used to this upfront-type scenario. Spend money for the upcoming year in advance. 26:53 And we have to do that to some extent on all sides for all the reasons that we know. 26:57 However, because of the rate in which this business is changing, and because of all of the evolutionary and in- innovative tactics that are becoming available, and all the new data that supports the value or lack thereof for these tactics, I wish that there wasn't so much done in advance. 27:17 Like, I wish that on the sell side, halfway through the year, there wouldn't be as much, "Hmm, we're sold out," and on the buy side, there wouldn't be so much, "We've spent all our money for the year." Right? 27:34 There's noth- if you're, if you're someone selling something, there's nothing you hate more than when it's, you know, May 1st and, and, and the advertiser says, "We've spent all our money for the year." 27:45 And, and, and the same thing on reverse. That, that would be what I would change. 27:49 What I do think has changed, which I love, is I do think that the skillsets of both the buy side and the sell side have, have combined and aligned very, very well. 28:03 Like, you'd be, you'd be hard-pressed to go into to an agency where 28:09 you have somebody that's actually part of an investment team or a strategy team that, that doesn't understand all sides of the coin, and the same thing at the, at the network side, and that makes me very happy. Yeah. 28:25 I love the, the first answer 'cause, you know, us being in the local space, um, with, you know, the potential of TV being purchase a spot, you know, our... 28:36 We still have people that do annual planning, but they're, the money ne- necessarily isn't spent, uh, all the time. And, and so there's a- an interest in, you know, shortening the planning cycle so that you could make 28:47 more decisions throughout the year to change, and that's one thing that, you know, we t- we take that to a, a national group, and they kind of look at us like we're aliens- Right... 28:55 you know, because of the, the annual cycle. And I think it's a huge benefit to, to changing that. Yeah. 28:59 I mean, if, if there's, if there's, if there's something that the national world could learn from, from the local world, and there's, there's more than one thing, that's, that's, that's huge. 29:09 I mean, you know, the local space, they know what they're going to spend. They have a budget like, like, like the rest of the world, but it can be altered. It can be changed. Yeah. Spots can be moved. 29:20 Thing- budgets can be, can be pushed. Allocations can be adjusted. And that's, that's a very good thing, you know? 29:27 And, you know, for a while you, you run into people and they'll say, "Oh, the, the local business is, is, is, is an old school type of advertising," and, and it really isn't. Right? It really isn't. 29:37 It's, it's if you look at things like you just said and some of the ways that they're, how nimble they're able to, to, to move and how they think, particularly just by not allocating, you know, all 10 of the dollars in, in, in the first week, that's, that's an important, important piece. 29:52 Yep. Mike, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I, I know our community is go- as well. Um, where can our audience find you and, and find more about Bright Line? Um, 30:03 you can find me at mbologna [chuckles] @brightline.tv. Mm-hmm. That's the best way to find me. Or 917-922-1157. You know what? 30:14 That's the exact same phone number that I got when I was 25 years old, and, and now, uh, that I'm 47, I still have the same phone number, and it's become my, uh, my business number. Interesting, probably slow fact. 30:26 Same carrier or have you switched? What's that? Same carrier or have you switched? Oh, I've been through every carrier. So every time I went... 30:32 So I, it started as, as, as my own, and then during my time at Group M, Group M picked it up. 30:38 And then, uh, and then when I, when I s- transitioned from Group M over, over to One To One, they transitioned the number over from there. And then it, uh, it, uh, it, it, it transitioned over to, to Bright Line here. 30:52 So I've carried the same phone number across the, the majority of my, uh, of my media career. But I, then again, like I said, I got my first cell phone when I was 25. 31:02 Now I, I, I walk around the mall and I see, I see 10-year-olds with cell phones. But what are you gonna do? Excellent. Well, I appreciate your time today. Thanks, Michael. I appreciate it. Take care. 31:14 [upbeat music] Thank you for joining us on this episode of Screen Wars. I hope you enjoyed the discussion. You can find out more about CrossScreen Media at crossscreenmedia.com. 31:24 Please don't forget to sign up for our weekly newsletter, State of the Screens. You can find us on social media, @crossscreenmedia. Join us next time for more insights and analysis straight from the experts.
